Hovnanian Enterprises Inc (HOV) ニュース

... timing ...

Insiders dumping stock - https://www.khov.com/investor-relations?tab=secfilings

News: $HOV Hovnanian Enterprises Reports Fiscal 2019 Fourth Quarter Results

Despite a $42 Million Loss on Extinguishment of Debt, Pretax Income was Roughly Breakeven Pretax Income, Excluding Loss on Extinguishment of Debt and Land Related Charges, was $45 Million Total Revenues Increased 16% Year-over-Year 15% Year-over-Year Expansion in Consolidated Communi...

Read the whole news HOV - Hovnanian Enterprises Reports Fiscal 2019 Fourth Quarter Results

News: $HOV Hovnanian Enterprises Reports Fiscal 2019 Third Quarter Results

Total Revenues Increased 6% Year-over-Year 12% Year-over-Year Expansion in Consolidated Community Count Consolidated Contracts Grew 23% Year-over-Year 12% Year-over-Year Increase in Consolidated Contract Backlog 10% Year-over-Year Growth in Consolidated Contracts Per Community ...

In case you are interested HOV - Hovnanian Enterprises Reports Fiscal 2019 Third Quarter Results

Homebuilder Hovnanian Enterprises Inc. (HOV) said Wednesday it received notice from the New York Stock Exchange that its shares weren't in compliance with the exchange's continued listing standards.

Hovnanian said it was informed by the exchange its average global market capitalization was under $50 million over a consecutive 30 trading-day period and its most recently reported stockholders' equity was less than $50 million.

The company said it intends to submit a plan to regain compliance. If the plan is accepted, Hovnanian will have 18 months to regain compliance.

The notice has no immediate impact on Hovnanian's stock listing or its ability to trade on the NYSE.

yes they are

HOV is a huge, Huge, HUGE DISAPPOINTMENT. The RS was its death and the company has offered no communication to counter the continued death spiral. Their IR person never answers emails. Class act!!!

Another week of positive momentum.

https://www.nat.bm/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Weekly-freight-rates-140619.pdf

http://thebalticbriefing.com/tanker-report/tanker-report-week-24-3/

https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4375355/Research/Tankers/fearnleys_weekly_report_24_979594.pdf

https://www.hellenicshippingnews.com/tanker-market-rates-14-06-2019/

Glad I averaged down!! Higher highs, higher lows! Looking for some positive numbers Thursday.

This is the stinky of the stinkyness! This is so bad they will file chapter 11,, Stick a fork in HOV they are done. chapter 11

Same selloff in early April before a run up to $17.25.

Picked up some more today at $11.00. This is a no brainer. Way oversold. Earning release June 6, 2019.

There is no publicly known basis for this massive selloff. I have been averaging down and will buy some more here at $12.40 then maybe at $11.00. The numbers simply do not justify this low PPS.

NAHB Housing Market Index: "Builder Confidence Posts Solid Gain in May" by Jill Mislinski, 5/15/19

https://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/2019/05/15/nahb-housing-market-index-builder-confidence-posts-solid-gain-in-may

The National Association of Home Builders (NAHB) Housing Market Index (HMI) is a gauge of builder opinion on the relative level of current and future single-family home sales. It is a diffusion index, which means that a reading above 50 indicates a favorable outlook on home sales; below 50 indicates a negative outlook.

The latest reading of 66 is up 3 from last month.

Here is the opening of this morning's monthly update:

Builder confidence in the market for newly built single-family homes rose three points to 66 in May, according to the latest NAHB/Wells Fargo Housing Market Index (HMI) released today. Builder sentiment is at its highest level since October 2018.

“Builders are busy catching up after a wet winter, and many characterize sales as solid, driven by improved demand and ongoing low overall supply,” said NAHB Chairman Greg Ugalde. “However, affordability challenges persist and remain a big impediment to stronger sales.”

“Mortgage rates are hovering just above 4% following a challenging fourth quarter of 2018 when they peaked near 5%. This lower interest rate environment, along with ongoing job growth and rising wages, is contributing to a gradual improvement in the marketplace,” said NAHB Chief Economist Robert Dietz. “At the same time, builders continue to deal with ongoing labor and lot shortages and rising material costs that are holding back supply and harming affordability.”

HOV has literately been crushed since the RS.

Housing sentiment is on the rebound in a big way and the demand for entry level housing is set to skyrocket.

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/nahb-housing-market-index

Interest rates are expected to drift down a little more going into the prime home buying season.

I am loading up at these low prices. Today was a great day to add more and cost average even lower. The volatility is high and opportunity great?!! Next earnings on 6/19/19.

Yes, seems we may have hit a bottom.

Actually doing pretty well now

This stock is just getting crushed!!! Reverse Splits are never a good idea and this one is no different. DOWN, Down, down it goes!

How low can it go...might get ugly for a few weeks

Here we go... keep your powder dry for lower PPS.

Hovnanian Enterprises Class B shares one for 25 reverse split. Ticker HOVVB to HOVVD on the OTC:


https://otce.finra.org/otce/dailyList?viewType=Symbol%2FName%20Changes

Weekly mortgage applications surge nearly 9% on lower rates

Mortgage application volume jumped 8.9 percent last week, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association.
The average rate for 30-year fixed-rate mortgages decreased to 4.45 percent from 4.55 percent for conforming loans with a 20 percent down payment.
Refinance applications jumped 12 percent for the week and were 8.5 percent higher than a year ago.

Borrowers and buyers awoke to a new normal in housing affordability last week, as mortgage rates dropped to the lowest level in more than a year and are now expected to stay low for a while.

Mortgage applications jumped 8.9 percent last week from the previous week and 5.7 percent from a year earlier, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association's seasonally adjusted report.

Both refinance and purchase applications surged, but the more rate-sensitive refis were the real leader. Those applications jumped 12 percent for the week and were 8.5 percent higher than a year ago. For much of last year, the refinance market was minimal, down dramatically from 2017, as rates rose.

Last week, the average contract interest rate for 30-year fixed-rate mortgages with conforming loan balances ($484,350 or less) decreased to 4.45 percent from 4.55 percent, with points decreasing to 0.39 from 0.42 (including the origination fee) for loans with a 20 percent down payment.

That was a reaction to the Federal Reserve announcement that it does not expect to raise rates anymore this year. Some are now suggesting the central bank could even lower rates. Bond yields fell even further on concerns of slowing economic growth overseas. Mortgage rates loosely follow the yield on the 10-year Treasury note.

"Rates dropped across all loan types, and the 30-year fixed-rate mortgage is now more than 70 basis points below last November's peak," said Joel Kan, an MBA economist. "The average loan size increased once again to new highs for both purchase and refinance loans, as borrowers with — or seeking — larger loans tend to be more reactive to the drop in rates."

Homebuyers also reacted positively, with purchase applications surging 6 percent for the week, although just 4 percent higher annually. Consumers shopping for homes are still facing higher prices, but the gains are shrinking and have been for the past 10 months. Nationally, prices were up 4.3 percent annually, according to the latest S&P CoreLogic Case-Shiller home price index.

Some see the decline in prices as a potential boost to the spring housing market, while others see just the opposite.

"The housing market is cooling and appears to be in the early stages of a mild cyclical downturn, as evidenced by declining home sales (despite the last reported month's resurgence)," wrote Issi Romem, chief economist at Trulia. "Changes in home prices tend to lag home sales by a year or two, so the current slowing of housing price appreciation aligns well with already-decreasing home sales."

There is also concern that today's lower mortgage rates could reignite some of the heat under home prices, as buyers are now more financially competitive than they were last fall. There is more supply of homes for sale now, but not a lot, especially at the entry level. Single family housing starts in February were more than 10 percent lower annually, although builders are reporting more buyer demand.

Mortgage rates continued to slide this week, and some are now predicting rates could soon be in the high 3 percent range.
Diana Olick

Jim Cramer (CNBC) today says housing is the place to be as rates are dropping and the Spring housing market is setting up fantastically. Will we see a bounce here soon? Time will tell.

Housing starts just crushed - down over 8%. That RS will be riding through town before you know it.

- Housing prices must come down.
- This entitled generation of coddled kids need to get out of their parents houses and stand on their own two feet.
- Mortgage rates need to come down
- Tax structure must promote home sales, not prohibit it.

Housing starts just crushed - down over 8%. That RS will be riding through town before you know it.

- Housing prices must come down.
- This entitled generation of coddled kids need to get out of their parents houses and stand on their own two feet.
- Mortgage rates need to come down
- Tax structure must promote home sales, not prohibit it.

I am with you there but I will wait for the RS. There will undoubtedly be a selloff and opportunity to buy lower. It will not take much for this to then shoot up having been beaten soooo far down but when we see some upbeat news only Gods knows. I have time to hold.

Panic is setting in. Might have to buy a few more down here.

Yikes....3.4 million share dump after hours. Somebody has had enough of this turdburglar and cut their losses

No catalyst here to move this stock up anywhere near $1.00. Prepare for the Reverse Split and further decline. Keep your powder dry and average down when the fear strikes!

(GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- Hovnanian Enterprises, Inc. (NYSE: HOV), a leading national homebuilder, reported results for its fiscal first quarter ended January 31, 2019.

“Our first quarter results were in line with our expectations. During the quarter, when compared to the prior year, we increased our consolidated land position, grew our earnings from unconsolidated joint ventures and improved our pretax results,” stated Ara K. Hovnanian, Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer. “After our weak November net contracts, we are pleased that contracts per community for December, January and February have rebounded to levels similar to last year’s strong results. In fact, for February, contracts per community, community count and absolute net contracts increased compared with the prior year.”

“We continue to move forward towards our goal of growing our community count and revenues, which ultimately should lead to substantially improved levels of profitability. During the first quarter, we increased our consolidated community count 11% compared to October 31, 2018 and grew our consolidated land position by 11% year over year as well. Our growth in land position this quarter was entirely driven by an increase in our option lot position, while our owned land position declined slightly. In keeping with our strategy of high inventory turns and risk mitigation, we now control 58% of our land via options. We remain disciplined in our approach to underwriting new land opportunities and believe that the strong U.S. economy, along with positive demographic trends, should bode well for the housing market going forward,” concluded Mr. Hovnanian.

RESULTS FOR THE THREE-MONTH PERIOD ENDED JANUARY 31, 2019:

Total revenues decreased to $380.6 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2019, compared with $417.2 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

While total revenues decreased $36.6 million, homebuilding revenues for unconsolidated joint ventures increased $37.2 million to $95.8 million for the first quarter ended January 31, 2019, compared with $58.6 million in last year’s first quarter.

Homebuilding gross margin percentage, after cost of sales interest expense and land charges, was 14.8% for both the first quarter of fiscal 2019 and the prior year’s first quarter.

Homebuilding gross margin percentage, before cost of sales interest expense and land charges was 17.8% for the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with 17.9% in the same quarter one year ago.

For the first quarter of 2019, total SG&A decreased by $2.0 million, or 3.2%, year over year. Total SG&A was $60.4 million, or 15.9% of total revenues, in the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with $62.4 million, or 14.9% of total revenues, in the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

Total interest expense was $32.5 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with $41.4 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

Interest incurred (some of which was expensed and some of which was capitalized) was $38.9 million for the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with $41.2 million in the same quarter one year ago.

Income from unconsolidated joint ventures was $9.6 million for the quarter ended January 31, 2019 compared with a loss of $5.2 million in the first quarter of the previous year.

Loss before income taxes for the quarter ended January 31, 2019 was $17.1 million compared with $30.5 million during the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

Loss before income taxes excluding land-related charges and joint venture write-downs was $16.4 million during the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with a loss before these items of $29.4 million in the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

Net loss was $17.5 million, or $0.12 per common share, in the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with a net loss of $30.8 million, or $0.21 per common share, during the same quarter a year ago.

Contracts per community, including unconsolidated joint ventures, decreased 7.9% to 7.0 contracts per community for the quarter ended January 31, 2019 compared with 7.6 contracts per community, including unconsolidated joint ventures, in last year’s first quarter. Consolidated contracts per community decreased 6.8% to 6.8 contracts per community for the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with 7.3 contracts per community in the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

As of the end of the first quarter of fiscal 2019, community count, including unconsolidated joint ventures, was 153 communities. This was a 7.7% sequential increase compared with 142 communities at October 31, 2018 and a 7.3% year-over-year decrease from 165 communities at January 31, 2018. The consolidated community count was 137 as of January 31, 2019. This was an 11.4% sequential increase compared with 123 communities at October 31, 2018 and a 2.1% year-over-year decrease from 140 communities at the end of the prior year’s first quarter.

The number of contracts, including unconsolidated joint ventures, for the first quarter ended January 31, 2019, decreased 14.6% to 1,068 homes from 1,250 homes for the same quarter last year. The number of consolidated contracts decreased 9.1% to 934 homes, during the first quarter of fiscal 2019, compared with 1,027 homes during the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

For February 2019, contracts per community, including unconsolidated joint ventures, was 3.4 compared with 3.3 for the same month one year ago. During February 2019, the number of contracts, including unconsolidated joint ventures, increased to 533 homes from 528 homes in February 2018. As of February 28, 2019, community count, including unconsolidated joint ventures, was 159 communities compared with 158 communities as of February 28, 2018.

The dollar value of contract backlog, including unconsolidated joint ventures, as of January 31, 2019, was $972.0 million, a decrease of 16.8% compared with $1.17 billion as of January 31, 2018. The dollar value of consolidated contract backlog, as of January 31, 2019, decreased 7.9% to $749.8 million compared with $814.4 million as of January 31, 2018.

For the quarter ended January 31, 2019, deliveries, including unconsolidated joint ventures, decreased 1.9% to 1,119 homes compared with 1,141 homes during the first quarter of fiscal 2018. Consolidated deliveries were 967 homes for the first quarter of fiscal 2019, a 5.7% decrease compared with 1,025 homes during the same quarter a year ago.

The contract cancellation rate, including unconsolidated joint ventures, was 23% in the first quarter of fiscal 2019 compared with 20% in the first quarter of fiscal 2018. The consolidated contract cancellation rate was 24% for the three months ended January 31, 2019 compared with 18% for the same quarter in fiscal 2018.

LIQUIDITY AND INVENTORY AS OF JANUARY 31, 2019:

Total liquidity at the end of the of the first quarter of fiscal 2019 was $215.0 million, well within our target range.

In the first quarter of fiscal 2019, approximately 2,500 lots were put under option or acquired in 26 communities, including unconsolidated joint ventures.

As of January 31, 2019, consolidated lots controlled increased by 11.3% to 30,262 year over year from 27,183 lots at January 31, 2018. The consolidated lots under option at the end of the first quarter of fiscal 2019 were 17,416 lots compared with 14,260 optioned lots at the end of last year’s first quarter. As of January 31, 2019, the Company owned 12,846 lots compared with 12,923 owned lots at the end of the first quarter of fiscal 2018.

WEBCAST INFORMATION:

Hovnanian Enterprises will webcast its fiscal 2019 first quarter financial results conference call at 11:00 a.m. E.T. on Thursday, March 7, 2019. The webcast can be accessed live through the “Investor Relations” section of Hovnanian Enterprises’ website at http://www.khov.com. For those who are not available to listen to the live webcast, an archive of the broadcast will be available under the “Past Events” section of the Investor Relations page on the Hovnanian website at http://www.khov.com. The archive will be available for 12 months.

ABOUT HOVNANIAN ENTERPRISES, INC.:

Hovnanian Enterprises, Inc., founded in 1959 by Kevork S. Hovnanian, is headquartered in Matawan, New Jersey and, through its subsidiaries, is one of the nation’s largest homebuilders with operations in Arizona, California, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Maryland, New Jersey, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Washington, D.C. and West Virginia. The Company’s homes are marketed and sold under the trade names K. Hovnanian® Homes and Brighton Homes®. Additionally, the Company’s subsidiaries, as developers of K. Hovnanian’s® Four Seasons communities, make the Company one of the nation’s largest builders of active lifestyle communities.

Additional information on Hovnanian Enterprises, Inc. can be accessed through the “Investor Relations” section of the Hovnanian Enterprises’ website at http://www.khov.com. To be added to Hovnanian's investor e-mail list, please send an e-mail to IR@khov.com or sign up at http://www.khov.com.


NON-GAAP FINANCIAL MEASURES:

Consolidated earnings before interest expense and income taxes (“EBIT”) and before depreciation and amortization (“EBITDA”) and before inventory impairment loss and land option write-offs (“Adjusted EBITDA”) are not U.S. generally accepted accounting principles (GAAP) financial measures. The most directly comparable GAAP financial measure is net (loss). The reconciliation for historical periods of EBIT, EBITDA and Adjusted EBITDA to net (loss) is presented in a table attached to this earnings release.

Homebuilding gross margin, before cost of sales interest expense and land charges, and homebuilding gross margin percentage, before cost of sales interest expense and land charges, are non-GAAP financial measures. The most directly comparable GAAP financial measures are homebuilding gross margin and homebuilding gross margin percentage, respectively. The reconciliation for historical periods of homebuilding gross margin, before cost of sales interest expense and land charges, and homebuilding gross margin percentage, before cost of sales interest expense and land charges, to homebuilding gross margin and homebuilding gross margin percentage, respectively, is presented in a table attached to this earnings release.

(Loss) before income taxes excluding land-related charges and joint venture write-downs is a non-GAAP financial measure. The most directly comparable GAAP financial measure is (loss) before income taxes. The reconciliation for historical periods of (loss) before income taxes excluding land-related charges and joint venture write-downs to (loss) before income taxes is presented in a table attached to this earnings release.

Total liquidity is comprised of $113.3 million of cash and cash equivalents, $12.7 million of restricted cash required to collateralize letters of credit and $89.0 million of availability under the senior secured revolving credit facility as of January 31, 2019.

FORWARD-LOOKING STATEMENTS

All statements in this press release that are not historical facts should be considered as “Forward-Looking Statements” within the meaning of the “Safe Harbor” provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such statements involve known and unknown risks, uncertainties and other factors that may cause actual results, performance or achievements of the Company to be materially different from any future results, performance or achievements expressed or implied by the forward-looking statements. Such forward-looking statements include but are not limited to statements related to the Company’s goals and expectations with respect to its financial results for future financial periods. Although we believe that our plans, intentions and expectations reflected in, or suggested by, such forward-looking statements are reasonable, we can give no assurance that such plans, intentions or expectations will be achieved. By their nature, forward-looking statements: (i) speak only as of the date they are made, (ii) are not guarantees of future performance or results and (iii) are subject to risks, uncertainties and assumptions that are difficult to predict or quantify. Therefore, actual results could differ materially and adversely from those forward-looking statements as a result of a variety of factors. Such risks, uncertainties and other factors include, but are not limited to, (1) changes in general and local economic, industry and business conditions and impacts of a significant homebuilding downturn; (2) adverse weather and other environmental conditions and natural disasters; (3) high leverage and restrictions on the Company’s operations and activities imposed by the agreements governing the Company’s outstanding indebtedness; (4) availability and terms of financing to the Company; (5) the Company’s sources of liquidity; (6) changes in credit ratings; (7) the seasonality of the Company’s business; (8) the availability and cost of suitable land and improved lots and sufficient liquidity to invest in such land and lots; (9) shortages in, and price fluctuations of, raw materials and labor; (10) reliance on, and the performance of, subcontractors; (11) regional and local economic factors, including dependency on certain sectors of the economy, and employment levels affecting home prices and sales activity in the markets where the Company builds homes; (12) fluctuations in interest rates and the availability of mortgage financing; (13) increases in cancellations of agreements of sale; (14) changes in tax laws affecting the after-tax costs of owning a home; (15) operations through unconsolidated joint ventures with third parties; (16) government regulation, including regulations concerning development of land, the home building, sales and customer financing processes, tax laws and the environment; (17) legal claims brought against us and not resolved in our favor, such as product liability litigation, warranty claims and claims made by mortgage investors; (18) levels of competition; (19) successful identification and integration of acquisitions; (20) significant influence of the Company’s controlling stockholders; (21) availability of net operating loss carryforwards; (22) utility shortages and outages or rate fluctuations; (23) geopolitical risks, terrorist acts and other acts of war; (24) loss of key management personnel or failure to attract qualified personnel; (25) information technology failures and data security breaches; (26) negative publicity; and (27) certain risks, uncertainties and other factors described in detail in the Company’s Annual Report on Form 10-K for the fiscal year ended October 31, 2018 and subsequent filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Except as otherwise required by applicable securities laws, we undertake no obligation to publicly update or revise any forward-looking statements, whether as a result of new information, future events, changed circumstances or any other reason.

Let's get this darn shareholder vote behind us! It ain't moving anywhere but sideways until that day passes. Of course it's likely to rattle the weak cages when they vote to AUTHORIZE a split but hopefully the smart money swoops in.

After noticing and watching it the past week or two, I bought today @ $.66. If this were June, I wouldn't have bought so close to the listing extension deadline, but it's February, with plenty of time for the stock to rebound without a RS being necessary to stay listed on NYSE.

I strongly disagree with your assumptions. The NYSE notice of being <$1 and initial 6 month listing extension coincided with the announcement of the ASM/proxy vote. It is only logical to add the RS proposal to the proxy vote so the company has that option, if needed, to keep listed. The 6 month extension is good through July. Although the company didn't state that it would only RS if necessary to stay listed, it also didn't say that it was definitely executing, if voter approved. There is plenty of time for the stock to get >$1. The stock dropped below $1 in 2009 and 2011, and though I wasn't watching HOV then, I don't think that it did a reverse split either of those times. The stock rebounded both times very nicely, and I see the same scenario likely this time. In summary, reverse split is not a given, but the company needs the option ready if needed.

The simple fact they are proposing a RS will keep the stock at these levels or lower. It is a self fulfilling prophecy. It also confirms the fact the company is not expecting or planning any PR that would raise the PPS to the $1.00 range. No one in their right mind would make a substantial investment in a company proposing a RS unless they have information unknown to the market.

I have a large position and underwater. I bet large based on the historic, year after year, year end run-up which to my dismay did not happen this year. I will wait until after the RS when you can be assured of further PPS decline to average down.

How big is the RS how many share reduction

The FOMC sure didn't come out with guns blazin' for future rate hikes. That's a double positive for builders with debt loads like HOV. Consumers can still borrow money cheap to buy their expensive product and HOV can contain their interest expense of debt.

This thing could definitely creep back up above a buck in time to avoid a R/S.

R/S might not be necessary...there's a good amount of time left for the share price to hit $1.00 and above. It's crazy that it went under $1.00 in the first place!

:))

That's good

And the crickets go chirp chirp

Reverse split....good or bad here? I dont think it's the end of the world as long as they dont dilute and sell shares.

Some good looking pink sheet picks you got there. Good Luck!



p.s. I have 2 on your list but unfortunately didn't get in quite as low as you did. Still working my way out of them

In around .77 per share. Started positions in CBK, PIR, RAD, etc also. Hopefully something takes off over the next few years..

That is what happens down here in penny land. This turdburglar is officially a penny stock lingering around with all the other pump & dump doozies.

November Housing Starts + 3.2% vs -.07% estimate. This is positive news.

What's with this new microscopic spread?

This is way oversold. Looks like worries of next weeks rate increase, margin calls and year end tax selling. I will be averaging down as this will move fast to the upside on any positive news.

Wowsers. This turd is getting stinky. Penny stock stuff. Makes no sense to me. If for some reason the Feds hold rates next week things could get interesting. Dichotomy. Lower rates is better for housing industry.....Feds holding indicates economy slowing....oh what to do

down and your the only 2???

down

If only the market wasnt down 500 points today! Missed revenue doesn't concern me much when earnings are there. Especially with the environment builders are operating in right now. I still dont see near the spike in rates through 2019 that experts predicted as little as 2 months ago. If we see a bump this month and 2 in 2019 I think the housing market slows up but doesn't contract....which in the long run would probably be best for the economy as a whole. The longer we run hot the more vicious the inevitable business cycles become. IMO of course because after all I'm the proud idiot owner of this stock....and lots of it